“At Pine Ridge, I met an entire community that felt marginalized, pushed to the side and not really authentically heard. And that really made me realize that there are lots of ways for humans to lose a piece of their voice in this world.” (5:50-6:11)
“What is indigenous wisdom? Well, in my view, it’s available to us all, but to acquire it, you have to live intimately with nature. When you look at communities that lived intimately with nature, the sun, the moon, the sky, the resources, you end up becoming in sync with nature’s most fundamental rules. That, in my view, is the essence of indigenous wisdom.” (19:54-20:25)
“So I did feel like, well, if someone from a bit of a higher profile position of leadership was willing to dump their entire soul out and share it, that might help give permission and safety for others to do the same. That for me is the real essence of that journey and this book.” (32:36-33:02)
00:09 Connie: Welcome to Enlightenment of Change on talk radio.net. I’m your host, Connie Whitman. As always, thank you so much for joining us. So I hope as you listen to the show that you feel my passion, obviously about helping you change whatever perspective you need to change, you can clearly see whatever your successful future looks like for you. Now by incorporating the little changes that we share on the show, my guests and I, you’ll be able to create a huge impact whether it’s building your client relationship, scaling your business, ultimately growing your income, and of course, creating the life that you desire, but also that you deserve. So as always, thank you so much for joining me every week.
So my motivational quote today is actually by Kevin Hancock, who happens to be my guest as well. Now Kevin’s quote, he says, “My quest is not unique. In fact, it’s universally human. We are all seeking. We are all searching. We all have fear. We all enter this world in search of spiritual growth and development. It is easy to get busy, stay busy, and repress this, but we are all seeking”. So I really want you to listen to that quote, or go back and listen to the quote. I feel it’s a really powerful one and sets the stage for what we’re going to talk about today.
Now, when I read Kevin’s quote, I noticed two words that kept repeating throughout, “we all” and then dot, dot, dot. So do you feel connected to the people in your life or even the people in your community? And do you see many boundaries that have been set could be either by you or others that divide people to see differences, instead of seeing that we’re really all the same are all part of the same tribe.
Now in our world today, I think these are real important questions to explore. And Kevin and I are really going to dig into this. So I am beyond excited. This is the second time Kevin has been on this show. We’re actually going to discuss his second book. Now Kevin is the CEO, I’ll give you a little background about Kevin. So Kevin is the CEO of Hancock Lumber. It’s one of the oldest companies in America, and six-time recipient of the Best Place to Work in Maine. Now in 2010 at the peak of the national housing and mortgage market collapse, Kevin acquired a rare neurological voice disorder called spasmodic dysphonia, SD for short. When his own voice became weakened, he developed a new leadership style based on strengthening the voices of others. The other show was based on that book, The Power of Seven, right? Seventh Power. Thank you.
Now, today, we’re going to discuss his other awesome book, it’s called Not for Sale: Finding Center in the Land of Crazy Horse. Now, in this book, Kevin recounts his journey to Pine Ridge and shares the lessons he learned there that permanently altered the course of both his life and leadership style. Kevin describes how he learned to listen more, look inward for purpose, strengthen the voices of others, and reconstruct his entire sense of identity. So I want to tell you even more about Kevin, but let us jump into our conversation. So please help me welcome my awesome, wonderful friend, Kevin, to the show. So Kevin, thanks for being on again.
Kevin: Connie, I’m so happy to be back. Thank you. I love your show and I love your mission and your personal energy. So I’m excited to be here.
03:42 Connie: Back at you with all of the above. Right. It’s funny. Before we started the recording, I said to Kevin, I loved that I met him, and I’ve loved that we developed this really nice friendship. Because most people that are business CEOs of a company and that spiritual component, I find it’s usually women. So to me, Kevin, I said outside of my husband, he’s the coolest guy I know.
So first question, Kevin, what brought you all the way from Maine out to the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation? Because that’s quite a journey.
Kevin: Yeah, the first little chapter in my book starts with the sentence, “What brings you here?” In the beginning of the book, I found myself standing alone at the Wounded Knee Massacre site on the Pine Ridge Indian reservation in the Southwest corner of South Dakota. Me, a lumber company executive from Maine, and an old jewelry maker pulled up in a super well-worn car, rolled down her window and said, what brings you here? And I reciprocated her smile and said, that’s a great question. Upon reflection, I realized that I was searching, the quote you read at the beginning of our talk, I was searching for my own voice, trying to kind of regain my personal balance and find my voice on both a literal and spiritual level. In a community where nobody felt fully heard, this was really what started to give me goosebumps.
I had a voice condition that had thrown my life off balance. At Pine Ridge, I met an entire community that felt marginalized, pushed to the side, and not really authentically heard. And that really made me realize that there are lots of ways for humans to lose a piece of their voice in this world. And my time at Pine Ridge, I’ve been there over 20 times now, Connie, and my own work with my voice condition, together really thinking about the very meaning or purpose of a human life on earth. And perhaps it’s to self-actualize, that maybe we’re all just here doing the best we can to try to find our own true voice, to know it, to love it, to live it, and to gift it to the collective consciousness of humanity.
And my book, Not for Sale chronicles my first six trips to the Pine Ridge Indian reservation from Maine to South Dakota. And it’s really a personal quest that becomes a human quest for authenticity of voice, knowing ourselves, and being comfortable being ourselves. And from a leadership standpoint, creating a culture where everyone can just be themselves. Imagine how the world would change if everyone felt respected, valued, and heart exactly as they are.
Connie: And I want to hold up both books because we did the show on the Seventh Power. Kev, can you see that? Is it in the camera’s view? So this book talks about your journey of losing your voice and then sharing the ownership of the company, right? The leadership of the company, you dispersed it out. And then the book we’re talking about today is, can you say that again, Kevin, is it lined up? So this is the, Not for Sale. Love this image on the book as well. And the combination of the two.
So right in our first interview I said to Kevin, we talked about the Seventh Power and about the leadership and all of that. And I kept asking him questions about why Pine Ridge, how did that help you? And then he said he had this other book Not for Sale. So he sent it to me, which I love, with a little note. That was awesome. And I read it, and then Kevin and I spoke, and I said we have to do a show on this because the leadership component is critical. Anybody listening that’s a leader in your organization, please go listen to that show. Because I’ll tell you corporate America, we have it wrong. And the way Kevin has shifted his leadership model, he’s more profitable than the whole hundred plus years when his ancestors ran it. So just read the book, go listen to that interview.
So the thing that inspired me was, I think what’s happening in our country today, Kevin, it’s sickening, right? This world of our differences instead of we’re all brothers and sisters. Right. And it really upsets me. Cause you know, I have kids, I know you have kids. What are we leaving them? So this, to me, this book is a must read for everybody, number one. Number two, this conversation, I think everybody needs to sit and listen and resonate with your story. So I want to go back now, tell us about Pine Ridge and what it’s like there, because this is beyond fascinating as well, the place itself, as well as how it resonated with you.
09:21 Kevin: Yeah. So I had, when I was growing up, I always had a love affair with the American West. We took a trip when I was in middle school out to the Grand Tetons and Yellowstone. Then I went back in college and worked one summer at Yellowstone. But then later in life around the time I acquired my voice disorder, I found myself reading more and more about the American West in the second half of the 19th century, when our country’s Manifest Destiny ran into the Plains Indian tribes, and how they were really overrun by America’s quest to get from sea to shining sea, and the impact that still had on their communities today.
I was fascinated, and so in 2012, I picked up a copy of that National Geographic, and Pine Ridge Indian Reservation was the cover story. And I read that article, and on a whim, decided to go there. I said, I want to see what life is like for people who live there now. So anyway, Pine Ridge is in the Southwest corner of South Dakota, right above in the Nebraska panhandle and below the Black Hills. It’s about 2 million acres in size, bigger than the state of Rhode Island and a quarter of Massachusetts combined, and it’s home to the Oglala Sioux tribe. And they’re the direct descendants of some of the most famous war chiefs and medicine men in American history, names like Red Cloud, Crazy Horse, Black Elk and others. And I’ve since heard people who live there describe their community’s journey through American history as from ‘first to worst’. So before the winning of the west, they were one of the most prosperous and largest communities, indigenous communities, on the Plains. Totally self-sufficient, moving as they pleased with the seasons and the Buffalo.
Today, statistically it’s the poorest place in America. If you Google ‘median income by county’, the two counties that make up the reservation are first and second, in terms of the lowest median income level. We had a national crisis with COVID or with the mortgage collapse a decade ago when unemployment hit 12%, 15%, 18%. At Pine Ridge perennially, it’s 80%. Eight zero. The lowest life expectancy in the Western hemisphere is in Haiti, second is the Pine Ridge Indian reservation. Right in the middle of our own country. And I’m like, nobody even knows that story. How did this happen? And why are we still wrestling with this? These are amazing people. They’re human beings, no different than the rest of us.
And it really was a chilling wake up call for me about what leadership gone wrong and power gone wrong can create and how long it can take to unravel that damage once it’s done. So it’s just a beautiful place, beautiful people, amazing cultural heritage and indigenous wisdom mixed with the worst of statistics of oppression and poverty, and social challenges that you could find. So it’s kind of all things in one thing, right in the heart of our country.
13:33 Connie: And we don’t even know it’s there or that this is going on. I would think most of the people in our country don’t even know that this is going on now. It’s interesting because you, as the CEO of this very prosperous lumber company and your voice disorder, they kind of both brought you out there, which is fascinating, right? Two things. First, I want you to talk about the voice disorder and how that really started this journey going west. There was something that was bubbling up inside of you and it stemmed from the voice disorder. Right. That was number one. Number two, how you went out there and said, okay, what resources do I have and how I can help and how the people you met, how at first, they were like, yeah, just another person coming out saying they’re going to help and nothing’s going to change, right. So they both go together for me. So I’ll let you answer that however you think you should.
Kevin: Thank you, Connie. Right. So my voice condition, in 2010 upon reflection, was not a coincidence. I was the sixth generation, CEO of our company. My last name and the company’s last name or the same. With its rich history, I really internalized the responsibility. And I had gotten my own identity confused with my role as CEO. I couldn’t distinguish between the voice of the company and my own self-worth. I couldn’t see that at the time, but I see it clearly now, my voice condition was really a loving shot across my bow. I believe a gift from my own spirit or spirit guides that forced me to stop, sit still, think, and look inward. Think about what you do when you can’t really talk. You’re quiet. And when I got quiet, I started to hear voices and the voices were coming from inside me. It was an invitation to really re-embrace my own identity outside of my public roles.
And then that got me really thinking about serving myself more, something I kind of been taught not to do in hindsight, to be selfless. And I was really feeling some momentum towards self-care and doing things just for me and traveling out west Pine Ridge happened to be something that sparked an interest and I took a leap. And the first time, it’s just changed my tire life now. What was the second part of that question, Connie? Can you remind me?
Connie: Yes. When you met the people, right, and you started talking about, I want to make a difference, right. And you started sharing, I have this lumber company, so I have these resources, how can we partner and create magic? Right. And you truly wanted to own helping them make their tribe, right, their community, I want to say self-sufficient. They are and they’re not right, because they depend on the government, but you wanted to make a difference. And their response initially was, yeah, everybody comes and says they want to help. And after a year it kind of falls through. And that wasn’t the case for you because you actually became part of their community, which is awesome.
Kevin: Yeah. For generations, people like me from far away have been going there to fix, save, and change them. And of course that doesn’t work. People only fix, save, and change themselves. And the capacity to do that comes from within. Now, in my case, I was transparent about this. There was something super magical about their community for me, it was energy giving for me. So I went out of my way to tell people there that I went there not to give, but because they had something to give. They were powerful and wonderful and human no different than the rest of us. So I didn’t hide the fact that going there was generative for me. I wanted them to know that.
Along the way, I ended up doing some things to help them, we created a nonprofit. We built some houses, sent probably close to $150,000 towards Pine Ridge in the last 10 years. But really it was about the beauty that they had to share. I really concluded that this community was the keepers of some indigenous wisdom that was super timely and relevant for the planet today. And I thought a lot about this. What is indigenous wisdom? Well, in my view, it’s available to us all, but to acquire it, you have to live intimately with nature. When you look at communities that lived intimately with nature, the sun, the moon, the sky, the resources, you end up becoming in sync with nature’s most fundamental rules. That, in my view, is the essence of indigenous wisdom. As modern society has progressed and urbanized and sped up and lived on computers, we’ve lost some of that touch. I really came to believe that these marginalized communities were holding some super powerful insights at an exceptionally timely moment in human history.
And for me, learning about those insights, incorporating them into my own leaders within a company and then writing about them and talking about them became a passion of mine, that these are really valuable communities with lots to share and that they are abundantly rich in certain ways, just not unfortunately, economically, monetarily.
Connie: Yeah. And you talk about the level of poverty, the unemployment of 80%, right. Alcoholism, I believe, is ridiculous, even though I don’t think they’re allowed. If I remember correctly from the book, they’re not allowed to have bars on the reservation, but you literally go over the line and there’s a bar right there. So whatever income they make, they go right over to the bar, and they spend it.
So the other thing that I found so fascinating is, and maybe you could talk about this much better than I can articulate. Back in the 19th century where we moved west, we headed west and we kind of took over their lands and suppressed them, I guess that’s the best word. They became dependent on the government, because the government said, we’ll take care of you. You give us this land and we’ll take care of you. We’re going to move you here and take care of you. They believed and trusted and said, okay, the government’s gonna take care of me.
Now, fast forward, hundreds of years later, and they still are waiting for the government to take care of them and we’re doing a really bad job. Right. So talk a little bit about that because they are truly oppressed. I mean, it’s horrifying how they live out there.
Kevin: Right? No, well said. So I really thought a lot about this. Overreaching has consequences, so overreaching to me means those with the most power. So in this case it was the American expanding empire. Those with the most power overreaching, going too far taking too much from those with less power. When I really realized what happened to our native communities in this country and that genocide occurred here, it stopped me in my tracks. I always thought genocide was something that happened somewhere else, say in Germany with the Nazi era or other places. But it happened here too. And we built a lot of national mythology around this that wasn’t true. Like that basic premise, that Columbus discovered a New World. When I grew up, that was taught at kindergarten, but that wasn’t true. People already lived here. People already lived here, and we haven’t yet made peace with what happened. And essentially what happened was that those communities, their traditional way of life was taken, their land was taken, they were moved and sequestered in these far away isolated plots of land, that least desirable land.
And the idea, I can’t even believe this today, but the idea at the time was to remake them as white people. That was not the hidden agenda. That was the open agenda. We’re going to put you on these reservations until you can become Christian farmers that can assimilate into society. And I’ve thought a lot about this, and I can’t possibly get there but try, what would it feel like to be remade, systematically? To have someone come to your family, your community, and try to completely break who you are and reinvent it? What would that feel like? And, yeah to come to terms with that was really numbing, but then to see the resilience of the people living on these reservations today is inspiring. So the entire power of the United States’ government for a century from the 1860s to the 1960s, went to work trying to essentially exterminate this culture. And we happily were unsuccessful.
Now great burdens at hardships came with surviving, but these communities survived. Their languages intact, their cultures intact, and they survived. And there’s just this really heroic inspiring element to their story, that against all odds, their communities have survived. So now it’s about really helping them rehabilitate again and reclaim their full power and for us to really honor who they are as they are, and to apologize and do what we can to create a climate where we can move past the past and try to create something different together in the future.
25:51 Connie: And it’s hard because they still feel that the government’s going to take care of them. This culture has been created on top of their culture that we can’t do that because the government’s going to take care of us. It’s almost like brainwashing in a sense. And yet the government hasn’t taken care of them, right? I mean they have, like the housing trailers, that are really ready for the scrapyard, and they send them out there and say, well, we’re taking care of you. And because generation after generation, they don’t know any better than the government’s going to take care of us. So it became this culture on top of their culture, which is tragic.
And yet, like you said, it’s so beautiful out there. Their spirit, their love, that they truly opened their tribe to you, because you came from this sincere place and on your journey and they saw that. So it’s like wow, to have so much and you said it before this abundance of spirit, right. Of their heritage and live in such horrific living situations. It blows my mind. As I read that book, it blew my mind. It’s tragic.
And I’ll just share something else. If I had a really bad day, I like being around the trees and stuff like that, or I like being at the beach. For me, they’re my two kinds of places, near green or near the beach. So I would go sit out on my deck, a lot of trees around and I would just read passages from your book, sometimes it wasn’t even in order. Because after reading the book, I kind of would dog-ear pages. You know that, oh, you got to come back and look at that again. So I would go to the dog-eared page and just the essence of who they are and how they still believe in the moon, the sun and the earth and all, and the winds and, all of those beautiful things of the universe, yet, they still live in crap. I have so much, right. The whole thing is mind blowing, I guess, is what I’m trying to say, Kev and to raise awareness. So I think everybody should read this book because what’s happening today in our world, this is a book that needs to speak to at some point, I guess we were all persecuted to some extent.
And how can you make a difference and help those that are persecuted? And that my next question for you may build on that. Your book really talks about your very personal journey, your very personal story. And here you’re the CEO of one of the best companies in the United States. Right? And now you’re on this quest, your own personal quest and you shared personal feelings, personal thoughts, all those things. Did that scare you all to be so open and vulnerable by sharing this book? Did you have that moment of holy crap? Should I be writing this? You know what I mean?
28:31 Kevin: I did. So I originally, when I was traveling to Pine Ridge, was just keeping a journal. At that time, because I couldn’t talk a ton, journaling was very therapeutic. Because when I wrote, I could say everything I wanted to say. And then after my maybe third or fourth trip, I realized that this was not a journal, that it was going to become a book, that it was a big story that I might share. And then I did get scared, Connie, because in a journal, you unload your soul. And that’s what I was doing. I was unloading the weight of my own soul in their community. And then I was like, oh my goodness, am I really gonna share that? Should I go back and tighten it up?
But then I got some great advice from one of the star characters in the book, my dear friend, the evolutionary astrologist, Deborah Dooley. I was confiding in her about my worry of being so transparent in the book. She gave me the advice that I felt made the book. She said, Kevin no, you’ve got to back up. This book you’re writing, it’s just for you. This is a book you need to write for yourself. So write in the book you want to write as if no one else is ever going to read it. When you’re done, you can take it and set in the basement for a night, and then decide if you want to share it.
That advice invigorated me. So I wrote like no one was ever going to read it. And why, and I think in hindsight, the reason the book’s done as well as it’s done is because it’s so darn authentic and transparent, especially I think stereotype wise, for a white male, CEO-type guy in the prime of his career to be crying and soul searching and vision questing and sharing it all in this book. But I really feel that that quest lives within us all, and we’ve been incorrectly taught to keep it hidden, keep it secret, keep it suppressed. So I did feel like, well, if someone from a bit of a higher profile position of leadership was willing to dump their entire soul out and share it, that might help give permission and safety for others to do the same. That for me is the real essence of that journey and this book.
Connie: It’s a beautiful book. And I know that’s odd to say to a guy, right? It’s a beautiful book. But I think because you share the emotions that you were feeling, I love that it’s also in color so you take pictures with people and you share the landscape, you share the people. So you’re talking about these people, you’re talking about the landscape, and then we actually see a picture. You have the Wounded Knee, right? The different plaques that have been made and how some of the information is quite false on those plaques at these places. We’re out of time there. I feel like there’s still so much to talk about because it’s a book that’s needed today. I think every human in the United States needs to read this book to realize that we really all come from the same place, right. That the universal laws, like you said, at the beginning, that the tribe, they were affluent. And I don’t mean that monetarily, right? They were self-sustaining. They would follow the Buffalo, right, the cow path, so to speak. So they moved, they didn’t just set up their houses and stayed. Right. They moved, they followed the Buffalo, they planted, they ate, they killed, they hunted all of the things from the earth and they were abundant. They were a thriving society. And then man, right. The white man comes in and, how did we ruin it? It’s a tragic story and it’s a beautiful story kind of interwoven, if that makes sense Kev? Right, right.
Kevin: Yes, totally. Yeah. One quick thing you touched on there that I found so alluring and still do the idea of the nomadic lifestyle. I think it brings you back to a simpler time when you are nomadic, you have to keep your possessions to a minimum not a maximum. And when you’re mobile, moving with the seasons and the earth in sync, there’s just a whole different energy there that we’re missing a big piece of today. But these communities have saved and served and are ready to share with us.
And on that note too, Connie just quickly. Really in this important time of say Black Lives Matter and all of that important dialogue that needs to happen. This book is really also about cross cultural connectivity and the importance of getting out of our lanes. So I in stereotype am again, a white male, 1% CEO, and yet I’ve embedded myself without any of those trappings in this community. And this indigenous, remote, forgotten community has in return embraced me. And I don’t know how we progress without cross cultural connectivity. If we all stay in our neutral corner neighborhoods, I don’t think anything changes.
So this book is also a tribute to let’s get out of our lanes and let’s go get connected to a community that’s different from ours, not to fix it, change it or save it. But just to understand it. I’ve come to say that awareness and connectivity in and of itself is a powerful act. People ask me what I do when I go to Pine Ridge and Connie, I used to struggle with the answer, but now I just come clean. I don’t do anything there. I just hang out with the people who live there and that’s it. That in and of itself is so powerful. I see you. I know what happened here. I think you’re valuable. That in and of itself, I just got a goosebump, that it’s so powerful. Awareness and connectivity is a powerful act.
Connie: And we’re so segregated your community, even in sports in high school, the team that, what do they call it when it’s the adversarial team that plays the football game.
Kevin: The opponent, the other team.
36:17 Connie: But the opponent that’s like, that’s our adversary. You know how you always have one high school and another high school. Yeah. You play your opponent, but there’s an adversarial. We’re taught to be win, lose, right. Adversarial instead of, hey, let me get to know you, no judgment here. Right? Just let me get to know Kevin. We’re taught not to do that because my way is the right way, Kevin. Oh, by the way, my way’s the right way. The way I live is the right way. Is it? I mean, who’s to say that our way or that the Pine Ridge community or you up in Maine. But we don’t take the time to hold judgment and just see the person for who they are and what their soul is contributing to the world. We’re just so judgy and it’s heartbreaking for me because I have kids. And I’m thinking what the hell are we leaving them by being these judgy people?
And the other thing we insulate, depending on what news you watch, you’re hearing that narrative and I’m watching this news over here, so you’re wrong because my narrative says this. How about there’s truth kind of blending the two together. And I don’t think we are not seeking the truth anymore and we just want to be right. And that to me, we’re in dangerous territory because it’s not about being right. It’s about embracing, and you said it, it doesn’t matter who you are, whether you’re a white man from Maine or a chick from New Jersey it’s about our connectivity, right. And we’re not doing that. We’re just doing a really bad job of that.
For me, everybody, you need to read Kevin’s book, Not for Sale. Really powerful, wonderful stories. And leaders, you need to read this book and you need to read Kevin’s other book, the Seventh Power too, because corporate America, we’re messing it up, man. We are not doing it right, in my opinion. So anything else you want to say before we sign off with the peeps?
Kevin: Yeah, you are amazing. I agree with everything you just said, but like I’m not gonna add to it because you said it so eloquently. So thank you for being you.
Connie: Ah, thanks, Kevin. What’s funny is I live in Jersey, right? So I feel like in this part of the country where I live, we have a tremendous amount of diversity. Every culture is here, and I think New Jersey, the New York area, I’m not so familiar with Maine, but we have so much diversity. So when I go to my clients and I’m training my sales and stuff like that, I am so inquisitive because it’s not like, oh, your skin’s a different color. Oh, you came from another country. Oh, I don’t really want to hear about you. For me it’s always the reverse. I’m like, what do you do during the holidays? What do you cook? I’m so curious because it expands my knowledge. It expands my tolerance. By learning and being curious, I judge less, and I become fascinated to hear about these different cultures. So I feel like my kids, my husband, we’re really lucky where we live because we have so much diversity. I think in New Jersey, we have a lot of diversity. I embrace it. I think it’s awesome.
39:22 Connie: Yes. Yeah. But yeah. So, guys, please, find Kevin. You need more Kevin in your life. Just like I do. Go to his website. You can get the books. There’s a ton of information. It’s kevindhancock.com. I will post it so you can find him. Truly the books are amazing. I feel I have shifted in my realm of reality that I want. I know when I’m out of balance, I’ll pick up your book. So isn’t that fascinating. It’s become a tool in my life for me to just ground and think, wait a minute, listen to the trees. Listen to the ocean. Find that inner peace, that inner voice. Because it’s talking to you. We just have to quiet everything and listen. So I hope the book resonates with people. So go to kevindhancock.com. Check it out, buy the books.
Every leader should read the Seventh Power, a must read for you as well. Guys, go to my website, too. I have so much information there for you. Whitmanassoc.com I have a resource page, there’s a ton of free things, charts that I use in my sales training. My book, my number one international bestseller book, you can find it there. The link is there for you. I have a free communication style assessment. Understand how you show up, how you’re perceived, how you communicate. It’ll give you some insight into your filters, maybe your filters that are holding you back in your career and in your life. So a ton of stuff on my website as well, Whitmanasses.com. Find it, Kevin, thank you again. I feel another show in our future, my friends. What do you think? Are you up for it?
Kevin: Let’s keep going, Connie, I love it.
40:56 Connie: I do. And I think our conversations are cool. It’s not, yeah, we’re both business. Yeah, both CEO’s like all of that. That’s like, yeah, whatever. This is the real stuff. And as I think we’re similar ages as we age, this is the real stuff that makes life wonderful. And I think we need to have more conversations about that than sales and lumber and that part of our persona. So yeah, more to come. I think quarterly, I’m seeing a quarterly show in our future.
Kevin: I love it.
Connie: I love it. Thank you so much again for taking the time. Cause I do know you’re busy and I so appreciate your time and your insight and your vulnerability when you come on the show, I love it. I so appreciate it. And you guys, I hope you will join me weekly as we question, build and discover together that no matter what change you’re going through my guests, and I have your back. We’re here, we’re sharing resources, wonderful books like we discussed today. We’re here for you. Tune in, tap in, use the resources that we’re providing and create the change and just wonder in your life.
You’ve been listening to Enlightenment of Change with me, your host, Connie Whitman on webtalkradio.net. Thank you everyone. I really wish you a wonderful week where you open your mind to what’s possible. And I hope that my conversation with Kevin today inspires maybe some open-mindedness. So thanks again for joining me, Kevin. Thanks for being on. We’ll see you guys next week.